The Cave des Terres Secrètes: a cooperative that intrigued me, and the least we can say is that we weren’t disappointed. We were thrilled to make this connection during our trip on Burgundy wine, to chat with Michel, to understand his journey and to discuss the cooperative. We hope you’ll enjoy this episode and that it’ll make you want to grab some bottles of Terres Secrètes for your wine cellar.
Antoine: Hi Michel. Michel: Hi. Antoine: Thank you so much for having us here. So we’re just above the cooperative shop, even the cooperative’s headquarters. Michel: Yes, exactly. We’re in a small tasting room that’s just above the cooperative shop, right next to the meeting room where the board of directors meets. We’re at the heart of the cooperative.
At the heart of the Terres Secrètes reactor. Obviously we’ll talk about lots of things today but first, can you start by introducing yourself?
Michel: Michel Barraud, I’ve been a winemaker for almost ever since I set up shop in 1989 after leaving the Beaune wine school. It’s a family operation that my parents already ran and that my grandparents ran before them, a succession of several generations.
So you’ve really been steeped in the wine world forever?
Michel: Completely, steeped in the wine world and in this fantastic region, in this fabulous Mâconnais with its wonderful landscapes. Yes I think, rooted, attached to this terroir, to these wines we produce and to all the history that goes with it.
How did this discovery of wine, these first steps, go for you? Do you remember the first moment you tasted wine?
Michel: It wasn’t tasting wine that hooked me, that attached me to this trade, it was really nature, and the vine in fact. As a child, my parents took me to the vines very young and that’s how I started getting into it, so it’s more an attachment through terroir, through the vineyard, through manual work, through working the vines that hooked me to this trade.
What young memories do you have of your first steps, was there a click? For example, between the moment you said: “It’s nice, I like going to the vines and the moment you say I’m really going to make this my trade”, how did it go for you?
Michel: I have a really childhood memory, I was 5 or 6 years old, my father still had a horse. There was no straddle tractor. So it was around 72, 73, and I remember he would go to the vine to plow and put me on the horse and I’d go to the vine with him, that’s a memory that marked me. It wasn’t at that age that I decided to be a winegrower but when I was 14 or 15 I told myself this is where I’m well, this is where I feel good and this is what I want to do.
At 14-15, and at that point it was decided, you went to wine school?
Michel: Exactly, the classic path, the Beaune wine school, from sophomore year to BTS so five years in Beaune, five very beautiful years where I met lots of people and from which I keep many beautiful memories and especially good comrades. Antoine: I imagine in your class there must have been very nice people and that you must all still be in touch a bit today. Michel: Always, yes.
When you do this wine school, isn’t there a moment when you hesitate in this part? Isn’t there any moment between the start of high school and the end of the BTS in question where you say: “Do I really want to make wine, do I really want to do this?” For you, was it done?
Michel: No, I never had a doubt. From the moment I committed myself in sophomore year I had only one desire, one expectation, which was to finish this school path to really commit to the trade. I had no doubts during all that period.
What happens when you come out of the BTS?
Michel: When I come out of the BTS, my parents have a small Mâconnais wine operation, then I set up shop in 1989. We were still in operations where there was polyculture, where there was also a bit of livestock since we’re not very far from the Charolais massif. I really had the desire to launch myself into the trade of winegrower in full. I worked with my parents for a few years. We developed the operation together. There was a beautiful transmission that took place between my parents and me in learning the trade, well complementary to what studies are and just as important. After that the path followed its course.
What do you take from these moments? If there was advice to give to young winemakers setting up or something like that, what important do you take?
Michel: What I take especially as important is really having the feeling that you’ll love what you’ll do, that’s really important. You have to observe, a lot, you have to listen and then learn in fact, learn from others, draw lessons. You have to be in permanent awakening, listening, watching, learning continuously. It’s every day or almost every day that you have to listen and learn.
So we’re in, you told me 1989, when you come out of the BTS?
Michel: Yes, exactly, that’s it.
You tell me you did 4 or 5 years with your parents to continue learning, so we’re in 1995?
Michel: A bit more, until 2001 with my parents and then I continued alone on the family operation by developing it, of course with employees, and my father who’s still there, with always an attentive eye on the operation, he always lends a hand. Even though he’s 82, he’s still there, he’s still good for advice too and I always like to exchange and confront viewpoints, even though he’s 82. Antoine: Yes, super precious as moments, indeed.
What happened during these twenty years for you, so from 2001 to today? You spoke of developing the operation and we’ll come of course to Terres Secrètes after, what happened for you on this operation? How did you grow it? Earlier, you said at the time we were still in polyculture, is that still the case today? How did you sense the evolutions a bit?
Michel: The evolution happened little by little in fact, it really developed gradually. There was never a big jolt. What we did right away was that we really dedicated ourselves only to the vine and development happened through plantings and also takeovers of complementary surfaces, but really very gradually. I never made big leaps and it’s each year a few plantings, a few takeovers that meant the operation developed from 8 hectares in 89 to today, we’re at 30 hectares with a development project with my sons setting up which is coming.
How old are they?
Michel: The two who are setting up are 23 and 28 years old.
And same, you transmitted the passion of the trade to them?
Michel: I hope I transmitted it to them. I hope we’ll be able to share many things together. Antoine: It’s super interesting moments I think for them, this setting up and all, it’s quite privileged moments. Michel: Yes, that’s for sure. I savor them, even if sometimes relations are a bit tense between generations. Antoine: That’s normal. Michel: I lived them so I’ll live them too now, it’s logical. But yes, these are really privileged moments to enjoy.
I don’t know if it’s in parallel or not but how, can we start at the beginning on Terres Secrètes or can you tell me? Here we’re just above the Terres Secrètes shop, next to the board meeting room. So it’s a large cooperative here in the Mâconnais, can you tell me a bit more on this subject for someone who’s discovering it?
Michel: There’s no parallel between my operation and Terres Secrètes. It’s really a continuity in fact, since I’m a winemaker and a cooperator winemaker. I’ve been a member of Cave des Terres Secrètes forever since my parents already were and at that moment, when I set up shop, the question came up too. Does the choice orient towards the cooperative or towards an independent winery, an independent vinification? There you go, we have a very marked cooperative spirit too. We also measure all the strength of working together. I naturally got involved little by little within the cooperative being a member at the start. My father was himself also very involved and I joined the board of directors in 2001 and the executive committee then. I became president of the board of directors of this cave in 2007, and I still am today.
I’ve only done one interview in a cooperative cave so far. It was at Plaimont. I don’t know if you know them?
Michel: Yes, I know them. Antoine: It was super nice, we had a great time there. We tasted their white. I don’t remember what it’s called, but they release a white en primeur fairly often. Michel: A muscadet. Antoine: I don’t remember, we’ll find it. But it’s a cooperative model.
Can you explain to us what a cooperative is, how it works? Then we’ll dive a bit into the history of Terres Secrètes but already, so we understand well, what’s a cooperative in the wine world?
Michel: A cooperative is necessarily a grouping of winegrowers who unite to, in our case, vinify and commercialize together. That is to say each winegrower is a member. They hold shares within the cooperative. As I was saying earlier, the cooperative is really the extension of the operation. In no case, in the understanding sometimes, do we imagine that a cooperative buys the harvest from the winegrower, not at all. We vinify, we commercialize together and we share the fruit of the result of our cooperative, hence all the interest that it be as efficient as possible and for that the winegrowers who join be as involved as possible with employee teams of course, very high-performing.
The idea is really to say: “We pool resources to be able to do the vinifications and to group equipment that can sometimes cost a lot individually or that can not be used in the most effective way when you’re alone, and to pool commercialization, marketing to chase market shares.” It’s a model that’s super interesting because it’s a bit between staying alone and conversely getting bought out or having a huge Domaine, and I find it rather interesting to have this in-between of cooperatives.
Michel: Yes, that’s for sure. It’s really taking your destiny into your hands but collectively while being aware that together, we’re stronger, that we can unlock things we couldn’t unlock alone, have more striking force, an already more important commercial offering and then an organization that allows us to trade a bit everywhere in the world today. Antoine: Yes, that’s also incredible. It’s true that distribution and commercialization is quite mad.
Can you tell us about the history of Terres Secrètes? How was it created and how did it develop until today?
Michel: Cooperation in the Mâconnais started in the 1925 years. The first cooperative is that of Saint-Gengoux-de-Scissé in the North Mâconnais. Then, over a decade, cooperatives were born in many villages of the Mâconnais. There’s almost one cooperative per village to picture things. They were necessarily born in a period of crisis, of great difficulty. At the end of the 20s, it was very complicated to produce and sell wine and it was born this way. The cooperative cellar of Prissé originally was born in 1928, that of Verzé in 1928 also and that of Sologny in 1951. So I’m telling you about three cellars because they are three cellars located 7 km from each other, which remained independent until 1998 and which grouped together at that moment to form the Cave des Vignerons des Terres Secrètes where we are today. The objective of this grouping at the time was not difficulty in 1998, it was really a real ambitious project, a commercial project. Each cellar at the time sold essentially its wine to the Burgundy négoce. The idea was precisely to group together to have a more important offering, to equip ourselves with additional means to gain autonomy and sell more in bottles, which we did over a small twenty years.
How did this Terres Secrètes name come about? It’s super nice.
Michel: Yes it’s nice, it’s poetic, evocative, intriguing. I was talking earlier about a grouping in 1998. At the time when we grouped the three cellars we had to keep the spirit of the bell tower too, gather everyone because necessarily every time everything we do involves humans, men and you have to handle everyone to move forward. We were called “Groupement de Producteurs de Prissé-Sologny-Verzé” for a few years to keep the name of each village.
I think you could have made it a bit longer.
Michel: Yes, we would have done it if we could but we limited ourselves to that. We were well aware that it didn’t necessarily have a very pleasant or commercial connotation. We also sought to evolve and we had a brand, Terres Secrètes, that we already used in restaurants which worked well and then we did all kinds of research and finally we came back to this brand which suited us well. There’s always the question you’ll surely ask me: “Why Terres Secrètes?”. There you go I’m chaining alone. So Terres Secrètes, because it’s true that the Mâconnais is a very special vineyard. We did a tour earlier through the heart of the landscape. We saw the diversity of the terroir. It’s really a very tossed terroir with a multitude of facets and different slopes. Already a multitude of terroirs to discover and then it’s a vineyard that remains a bit in the shadow of our prestigious Burgundies of Côte d’Or, hence this name of Terres Secrètes. The goal isn’t to stay secret precisely but to make consumers, our clients, our friends understand that we have a multitude of secrets to reveal through the diversity of this terroir and through the diversity of cuvées we produce today.
Can we get into Terres Secrètes’ production? Can you tell us a bit about the type of wines you have, what do you do? You told me earlier, when we were doing a tour, that there are a hundred winemakers inside all this, that represents how many hectares, what types of wines do you make, can you tell me a bit more about all this?
Michel: So in quick figures, yes, it’s about a hundred winemakers who are associated within the cellar. They group together 900 hectares of vines and in these 900 hectares of vines we produce roughly 85% white wine and 15% red wine. So in whites, of course it’s the Chardonnay grape variety which is the king grape variety in Mâconnais with all our white appellations starting with the Mâcon Village, with all the selections after of communes inside like Mâcons Milly-Lamartine, Mâcon Verzé, Mâcon La Roche-Vineuse, among others for us, for what concerns us. Then, we move on to communal appellations, so we have the Saint-Véran cru which is a cru that has a rating that climbs regularly. There are 230 hectares of Saint-Véran within the cellar, which represents a third of the Saint-Véran appellation. It’s the jewel of the cellar and it’s really a very important wine for us, which contributes to our notoriety. Then, we have Pouilly-Fuissé too since we’re very close to the rocks of Solutré and Vergisson, so we have members who produce Pouilly-Fuissé. There you go for white appellations essentially. We have a second grape variety which is the Bourgogne aligoté which is a bit more marginal but which gives the Bourgogne aligoté appellation of the same name. And after, on the 15 percent of red remaining, they break down into the Mâcon rouge appellation which comes from the gamay grape variety and the Bourgogne rouge appellation from the pinot noir grape variety and of course Crémant de Bourgogne too, not negligible. There you go, quickly brushed the production.
That makes how many wines, different labels, references?
Michel: We have 70 different cuvées roughly. Nearly 70 different selections since the big work that’s been launched already for 20 or 30 years is precisely a work of more and more precise knowledge of these terroirs and then a parcel selection work that’s refined year by year.
Are you starting to see the results a bit? Did you create slightly different things, slightly new things with this identification work?
Michel: Yes. We didn’t create, we put forward what existed in fact through this knowledge of terroirs and precisely soil, exposure, knowledge of winemakers. And then, necessarily of personnel we have within the cellar too who master the work well since we have a vineyard manager who knows the cellar’s territory and the winemakers perfectly. We’ve identified over time privileged terroirs and that led to a multitude of cuvées. I was talking about 70 parcel selections earlier. It’s really the transformation of our cellar and cooperative cellars in general. That is to say, I was talking about the years 1928, where we were in the creation of cellars where people grouped together to vinify, to pool means as much as possible and then manage to commercialize. The cellars were often located by railway lines, that’s the case of Prissé, for example, and over time we went from this work really to meticulous work, more and more meticulous which allows us to release very high-end cuvées. We have on the table the first wine we’ll taste. It’s a Mâcon Milly-Lamartine, it’s already a commune of the Mâcon Village appellation and within this commune we identified a specific parcel called Le Clos du Four. It’s a one-hectare parcel that gives us a superb wine that comes from one operation. It’s a young female winegrower in fact who set up shop 4 or 5 years ago and so it comes solely from her operation. This work allows us to have the Milly-Lamartine, one operation on a Mâcon Verzé Croix-Jarrier, we’ll have 4 or 5 operations that will make up the cuvée. We start each time from a selection of terroirs. At that moment the cuvées are composed of the work of several winemakers or just one.
I propose we taste. It’s a new feature in this podcast. You’re the third person I’m tasting with while talking. For those listening to us, I was given the comment, I don’t know if I should say it but to consume in moderation of course. Anyway if you’re listening to a podcast on wine and you’re still at the twenty-first minute and a priori you consume in moderation, so I’m not worried, and so you’ll tell me what we’re tasting.
Michel: We’re going to taste the Mâcon Milly-Lamartine Clos du Four I was talking about just now. It’s a 2018, of course a clay-limestone terroir since it’s the basis of the Mâconnais. We’re on really stony scree from the Cra mountain located on the Mâcon Milly-Lamartine commune essentially. And this Mâconnais, this whole zone really geologically is very interesting since we have a whole series of rocky outcrops that’s very characteristic and that everyone knows well, the Vergisson rock, the Solutré rock, the Monsard, where we were earlier, the Coche rock at Berzé la Ville. This whole chain gives wonderful scree with very different soils from one slope to another, so we’re on this Milly-Lamartine. It’s a cuvée that often has a very floral side. It’s often marked by lots of lightness, lots of finesse. On the palate we immediately find the characteristic minerality of many of our wines and a small spicy side too at the end of the mouth that we find, a beautiful length. We have a part of the cuvée that’s also aged in barrel. We have a beautiful length in long barrel aging that allows us to have a wine that’s rich, fat and balanced. I’m doing a self-tasting but anyway I think in a tasting the main thing is to enjoy yourself. You shouldn’t intellectualize it. A wine should bring pleasure. We should appreciate it even if we should consume in moderation, when you’ve had a sip you should want to drink a second one, even a third and then I’ll stop. I 100% agree and clearly a wine should, can not be intellectualized and there’s no complex. I have many buddies who are moderately interested in wine but who I try to force to interest themselves in it or in any case when they come home I try to make them taste beautiful bottles, things I find nice etcetera because it’s the best way to put someone in the saddle, it’s making them taste something good. Often they tell me they don’t know how to talk about it or you, tell us what’s in it. The question isn’t that. It’s do you feel something at the time of tasting, does it remind you of something, do you like it or not, what are the sensations you can have in your mouth. So yes, I completely agree with you. And I hope that, for those listening to this podcast, you’re sensitive to this argument, and that our tasting also makes you want to come discover Terres Secrètes. Michel: We hope.
What you said about this wine is interesting, because so this is the production of a single female winegrower?
Michel: Yes, that’s it.
I have a question that’s a bit provocative, but why does she do it with you and not alone since in fact this bottle is just her? In itself she could also do it.
Michel: It’s a part of her operation too and all these selections as I was saying earlier can be one operation or several, but each time it’s part of an overall offering and we select the best of what we have and once again the richness of the collective means that it allows us to have a very broad commercial offering. So Violaine, who produces this Mâcon Milly-Lamartine Clos du Four, it’s an additional asset in the range. For example, she doesn’t produce Saint-Véran Croix de Montceau or Saint-Véran les Cras, which are prestigious cuvées that other colleagues will produce. It really allows us to have a very complete and rich offering. And the rule too of our cooperative is to commit the totality of one’s operation within the cellar. It’s something that’s important for us because the winegrowers are really involved and want to go to the end of their trade. That’s also what gives a lot of interest to the trade of winemaker and cooperator winemaker because we have a lot of identification and a lot of pride too in being able to offer cuvées that come from our operation or the operation of the colleague.
You spoke of distribution and the commercial force you can have. It’s clear that’s one of the assets of a cooperative without any doubt. Can you tell us a bit where we can find bottles of Terres Secrètes?
Michel: So, you can find them almost everywhere, you just have to look well but we’re necessarily very diversified in distribution. We have a direct sales part that’s important since we have a tasting cellar that’s rather well situated and welcoming. You really have to make the effort to come but as I was explaining to you earlier, the Mâconnais really has a very privileged geographical situation. We’re on the north-south axis and the east-west axis with the Centre Europe Atlantique road. We have the TGV that’s two steps away, we’re very well placed so we have a lot of passage. So, a direct sales part. We have necessarily many sales in the traditional network, that is cafés, hotels, restaurants, wine shops, wholesalers, that’s also very important. We work in mass distribution too, of course. Mass distribution is part of our clients and we’re happy to have them. We do it in France and at export, since we do at export the traditional circuit and mass distribution. Year in year out, we commercialize between 5 and 6 million bottles which represent 85% roughly of our production, the rest is sold to colleague Burgundy négociants. Of these 5 to 6 million bottles, 40% are sold for export.
That’s not bad, and on what countries as priority?
Michel: So yes there are traditional countries on Burgundy wines and on white wines from the Mâconnais in particular, we have England which is still our biggest client. We also have a lot of the Nordic countries Norway, Sweden, a lot in Europe. Belgium is also a very good client for Saint-Véran, Mâcon Village, Pouilly Fuissé and then necessarily we also commercialize in the United States, Asia and many countries but sometimes in very small quantities.
It’s funny this English appeal for Burgundy wines. Do you know where it comes from, do you have an explanation?
Michel: No, I don’t remember or I haven’t looked for a main explanation. It’s mostly people who like good things and who like to enjoy themselves and people who are sensitive too to the Chardonnay grape variety, who like this Chardonnay grape variety because it’s very varied moments of consumption but which can go from the aperitif because we’re on the Mâcon we’re tasting now is perfect as an aperitif. Proof, it’s the time, we’re well in situation. And then it’ll go very well to pair with many dishes to go up to cheese because a Chardonnay, like other white grape varieties of course, pairs very well with cheeses. Antoine: I was thinking precisely about what I would eat with this bottle, I was deep in thought.
What does it mean to be president of the board of directors of a cooperative? Your job in the cooperative, what is it?
Michel: My job is to take on responsibilities and it’s especially to animate a board of directors. It’s to make a board of directors live, necessarily orient decisions, with collective decisions always, but bring ideas and make all those colleagues have flourish. It’s really animating this council and then organizing things so we manage to define a line of conduct that’s clear, with clear, shared projects, carried by all. That’s important, we never advance if the collective isn’t united or if the ideas are too divided. It necessarily passes through a time of necessary explanations, of understanding the whole before moving forward but once everything is in line we move forward and like that everyone can carry the project.
What are the main projects in progress at the moment?
Michel: The big projects in progress are linked to what I explained earlier, all these numerous parcel selections that have been made over the years and that continue to be made. Necessarily, we were also in a bottleneck in terms of technique because it also requires special equipment, more adapted vat rooms with smaller vats and all that. Over three years we have a big work program. We went earlier into the barrel cellar that has just been renovated, so it’s operational today. Next year we’ll have a whole parcel vat room that will be put in place in connection with this barrel cellar, just nearby, which will allow us to have 6,000 hectoliters of small capacity vat rooms precisely for these parcel selections. Upstream of all this, a harvest reception site really dedicated once again to these parcel selections with greater respect for the harvest and even more adapted, finer pressing.
It’s super exciting this vat room for small parcels. Potentially it’s going to inaugurate an even more extended range at your place or even more precise work.
Michel: Yes it’s exciting, very motivating. It’s a very unifying project, that’s important. They’re important investments, but that everyone really does with a lot of desire, a lot of pleasure because we know we measure the end goal. Everyone is very impatient that we get to the end of this investment which will allow us further to put our Mâconnais terroirs into greater value and especially those of Terres Secrètes.
We talked a bit about it earlier when we were walking, you told me that here you’re at the center of quite a few axes, that it’s quite well-served and easy. It seems to me you have a guesthouse too just behind. It’s both possible to come see you but also that’s something I suppose you try to develop in the cooperative.
Michel: Yes it’s an aspect we try to develop, this oenotourism aspect that’s talked about in many regions. Everyone has at heart to couple tourism with wine and necessarily when you’re in a wine region, viticulture is a very important tourist attraction. The guesthouse we have isn’t too recent since it was transformed in 2000, at the very beginning of the 2000s. It’s a group guesthouse that allows accommodation for up to 34 beds, 34 people. That’s really important. We work oenotourism a lot through many activities and actions throughout the year. We had a whole period when we did concerts in summer in front of the cellar by the way. We hosted Ibrahim Maalouf for example, to cite a name, important. He was less known than today, but we’re proud to have hosted him at our place.
You’re the ones who discovered him.
Michel: We’re the ones who discovered him exactly, we’re the ones who launched him, but I didn’t dare say it. And then a lot of discovery of terroirs too through tasting walks. That’s something we’ve done for a very long time, for 20 years too. Or we organize circuits in the vines with tasting points associated with food too necessarily. A lot of open house welcomes too to make discovery and open the doors of the cellar to make people understand what we do. It’s an aspect we continue to develop and that we seek to develop. All our current project of parcel selections, of barrel cellar, of harvest reception which is located around the sales shop, it’s necessarily an oenotourism project idea. It will allow us to have a very simple, very easy, fairly quick visit circuit where we can really make people discover the trade and the end result. It’s important, we have a big work to do permanently in communication with our clients but also with our neighbors and citizens in general.
Do you sense that there are people who don’t necessarily understand what it is?
Michel: Yes, we always need to exchange. Society is like that where people are pitted against each other. So yes, it always passes through dialogue and welcoming people, making them understand what we do, that’s the best of solutions. Antoine: In any case there’s a TGV station called Mâcon-Loché which is nearby. I took the train there once and I’ll come back to do it. It’s easy, ultra-fast, there are no excuses not to come see you and you can come up to 34, normally there’s a bit of room. In the wine world, there are often generation changes, or in any case it’s things that are striking. We talked a bit about it together but at a time when a child takes over the operation of their parents etcetera, but so I suppose that’s also something you must see within the cooperative.
I don’t know if you do general assemblies, but whether it’s within a general assembly or within a board or things like that, there must be different generations inside. Is that the case and how does it go a bit between generations? I suppose it’s super but how do you note this evolution of generations in the cooperative?
Michel: Already we have many setups. We had a dip about ten years ago but for 5 or 6 years we’ve had many setups happening whether in the family framework or outside the family framework since it’s also one of the possibilities, one of the facilities of being in cooperative because it requires much smaller investments. I have several examples of young people who set up shop recently who weren’t from the wine world. It’s a great satisfaction of our cooperative and of cooperation in general because it’s a possibility that’s offered. We have many young people who set up. Next to us earlier in the meeting room there was the “young” group that was there. They’re preparing a tasting on November 4 to make discover the Révélis cuvée which is a very high-end Saint-Véran cuvée that they conceived themselves with a selection of terroirs, with very particular aging, vinification. So they’re preparing an evening on November 4 to make it discover. These young people are very present and very involved. It’s the richness of the cooperative, it’s really the important aspect, it’s transmission. It’s an important moment. You have to live it and it has to be concrete in all our companies, whether operations or in our cellars. A healthy cellar is a cellar where there are young people or young generations, when there are new ideas and when ideas confront, which is the case today. I don’t particularly feel generation conflicts. I think everyone benefits from the skills and originality of each other. And the strength of the group is that, being able to compose with the whole and precisely draw the best from everyone. Opposition is necessary because you have to confront ideas, viewpoints. There has to be debate, dialogue. As I was saying earlier, there has to be dialogue within the cooperative but it always leads to a consensus that, there you go, that suits everyone.
The point you mentioned about the cooperative being able to facilitate the setup of new people not from the winemaker, viticultural world before, or in previous generations, I hadn’t thought about it but it’s ultra interesting because indeed there’s less investment, it can go much faster. Is that something you see a lot precisely, young people arriving, setting up?
Michel: I was thinking of Mathieu, who set up shop last year. He’s a young guy who wasn’t at all from the wine world. On the other hand he lived next to a wine operation and since he was a kid he was passionate about the work of Dominique who precisely is a winegrower, who’s 55 years old. He always welcomed him, always showed him what the trade was and there you go, he set up shop on the vines that Dominique left him in tenancy. They agreed on the equipment because cooperation also passes through the use of equipment in common. It’s managed at the operation level, which allowed Mathieu to set up shop. He’s an ultra motivated young guy who’s present within the “young” group, who always has lots of ideas and is always a “driver”. Antoine: Very nice story. Michel: It’s a nice story, yes. Antoine: We hug him if he’s listening to this podcast. Michel: He deserves it. Antoine: He deserves it, yes. We can’t wait to discover what he’ll do with this parcel.
One of the strengths of the cooperative as I’ve been able to see so far, is also being able to support different viticultural practices and precisely to provide expertise, allow each to try to climb further in quality at the vine, on the operation. Is that also something you do? How does it go?
Michel: Yes, of course, it’s necessarily an important work and once again it’s the collective that creates emulation within the cellar. I’ll necessarily speak of winegrowers. On the board of directors we’re 28 winegrowers, but we also have a whole team of employees with a general manager who’s in charge of running the cellar daily. On the vineyard side too, we have a vineyard manager who follows members more particularly and who knows the terroirs well, as I said earlier. Support, evolution of practices is a constant subject and we practice it daily. It passes through lots of things, necessarily information meetings, technical visits, training too. Last year for example, we did training on the biological fertility of the soil, on plant cover. These are important things that mean the group allows evolution and to make almost everyone evolve. Antoine: It’s ultra interesting to allow members precisely to go further and use this cooperative force.
Do you have foreign counterparts and is the cooperative a model that exists in other countries?
Michel: Yes, of course. Cooperation exists in many countries. I’m thinking of Italy, Spain in particular. They’re really our neighbors, our cousins and cooperation is also very present in these countries. I have no contacts with cooperators or presidents of cooperatives from these countries but yes, it’s also something that exists and that always lives very well.
I think we have an interest in any case to think about it. I was listening to a podcast not long ago that’s not at all in the wine field, on a cooperative called: “C’est qui le patron?” (Who’s the boss?). I don’t know if it rings a bell?
Michel: Yes, in fact it’s the brand of a dairy cooperative that created this brand in a period where necessarily selling milk is complicated and to mass distribution in particular. It’s a brand that was filed by a cooperative and broke through in very little time. It was really a stroke of genius to make people understand that in a production like milk, which is global, the producer also needs to have their share of the cake and not all of distribution to take it back. It’s a good way to reappropriate the product and make consumers understand that the producer should also generate and keep value.
Is that something you sometimes see, this kind of tensions a bit on price? I suppose there’s less wine than milk.
Michel: Wine is different in the measure that in our sector we’re on AOP, Protected Designation of Origin zones, it’s really an important appellation. Each wine is unique. Competition necessarily exists between regions, between countries. But each wine through its origin quality is unique. That allows us to have more ease. Then we have a great chance too in Mâconnais of being part of Burgundy. Burgundy makes many people dream, many consumers, it’s a strength, a chance. We’re always in commercial relations and sometimes they’re tense and depending on the context, depending on the production volume on the market and depending on the relationship between supply and demand, yes, necessarily, there are moments of more or less significant tensions. We live it too. Antoine: It’s the life of a company. Michel: Exactly. Hence the interest for us to capitalize even more on our designations of origin, on our parcel selection, on our brand, Terres Secrètes, which will, I hope, be more and more recognizable and which will take a more and more important place in the eyes of the consumer.
On this parcel selection, it’s the Clos du Four, can you tell us a bit about other selections that may exist and describe them a bit? Who they are, how they’re made? What does it look like?
Michel: So I think I need to go get other bottles so we can continue the tasting. Antoine: Let’s do that. Michel: Come on, I’ll go get another wine.
I’ll fill in while waiting on the topic of the cooperative. We’ve done a nice tour of the subject. Earlier indeed we tried to do a tour and take a bit of height to see all this Mâconnais landscape but there was a lot of fog so we promised to come back and to enjoy this landscape again. We’ll put photos I think on the Instagram account or elsewhere, but in my opinion we won’t have much success this time. It’ll be for next time. Come see it for yourself too. It’ll be important, you’ll be very well welcomed and you’ll be able to enjoy.
Michel: So in the, we were talking about the Mâcon Milly-Lamartine earlier. In the Mâcons, we have a multitude of commune selections. At our place we have the Mâcon Verzé Croix-Jarrier, which is a beautiful cuvée too. We’ll be on something even more mineral really, very marked by limestone, which will be something more tense, sharp. A very beautiful cuvée too, we’ll have Mâcon La Roche Vineuse too, the Morliones is a place name on the La Roche Vineuse commune. They’re two hectares. Two winegrowers compose the cuvée, and it’s a cuvée we released in 2019, so very good. We don’t have time to taste everything, but I was talking about the Mâcons. Now I’ll move to Saint-Véran since necessarily I said earlier, it’s the jewel of the cellar. It’s a very beautiful communal appellation of the Mâconnais and in this Saint-Véran appellation we also have several terroirs, including three main ones we commercialize at the shop, so Saint-Véran Croix de Montceau which we’ll taste. Croix de Montceau is a place name that’s exposed full south, in the north of the Saint-Véran appellation but it’s a very sunny slope, full south, vines we harvest at the very beginning of harvest because we very quickly reach a very beautiful ripeness. It’s a very beautiful slope. It’s also a place that was the property of Alphonse de Lamartine, we talked about it earlier when we were doing the vineyard tour. Lamartine marked Milly since he was born in Milly. He owned vines in Milly but he also owned vines in this Croix de Montceau zone. We’ll begin the Saint-Véran with this Croix de Montceau 2019 that I said is very sunny, lots of freshness, a very citrus side on first nose and then a beautiful length, I hope. I hope you’ll find all that. In these Saint-Véran, there’s a lot of work being done on the terroir. The Saint-Véran appellation is a communal appellation that was created in 1971. At the start, it was a selection that had been made within the Mâcon appellation. Over time, we became more and more aware of the potential of this cru, of these different terroirs. That led to a selection of climats, a fairly significant list of climats including this Croix de Montceau. Today there’s delimitation work in premier cru in the Saint-Véran appellation. In a few years, when the INAO works have ended, we’ll certainly have Saint-Véran premier cru. The Croix de Montceau should be one.
It’s excellent. We feel indeed what you said, much more tense, much more acidity. We feel the minerality that’s present, it’s ultra pleasant.
Michel: We’re chauvinistic, necessarily I won’t say the contrary. But yes I find it’s lots of finesse, lots of length. I think every time we make people taste we’re always proud to make our wines tasted. All the winegrowers, cooperators, are a lot in their vines, that’s for sure, that’s the principle. It’s also a strength, mastering the terroirs and then knowledge of the vine and the trade of winegrower but they’re also present at the cellar, a lot, to sell. In turns the weekends winegrowers are present and meet clients who come. There’s always a lot of pride to present our wines. We have no worry, ever and that’s really important. When we present a wine with a small doubt, that we’re not sure, we say it’s not great but that’s not the case. I think it’s not displaced chauvinism, I think it’s really true, as we say in the Mâconnais. Antoine: It’s really ultra interesting, we recommend it to you. It’s validated by the editorial team. Michel: We’re waiting for many of you, at the shop.
But if you can find it, yes in the shop here, or in good restaurants, I think, no?
Michel: Yes of course, you find it in many good restaurants and at wine shops too, as I was saying earlier. It’s really a range we’ll reserve for shop, restaurants, wine shops.
It’s very good. Who makes this one in your cooperative?
Michel: This one is Clément, who’s a young setup who started two years ago and works with his mom, Christelle. It’s a family too, with a succession of generations. I’m also thinking of Thierry. So they must be three winegrowers on this cuvée.
That’s also what’s beautiful in the work of the cooperative, and I think it’s one of the pillars of the work you also try to do but it’s showing the human faces behind each of the products in fact. It’s not a bottle of wine, it’s a bottle of wine that was made by men and women who worked the earth, harvested, made the wine… It’s both a collective and a whole but it’s also real unique people.
Michel: Yes, what you raise is really important. It’s really an aspect we developed too over time. I think people listening will understand what I’m saying. There’s often sometimes a pejorative image of what a cooperative is. We imagine it’s a big company with an industrial side. But no, indeed it’s an addition of men and women who work together and who can co-produce, like what we’re tasting today, very meticulous selections. And men, we really put back, once again it’s beautiful phrases but it’s a reality, we really put men at the heart of the project. When we redo our shop in 2009 we did a portrait gallery of all the winegrowers and all the cellar’s employees. When we launched that we said people might be reluctant, but once again, it’s an element of incredible pride. Everyone was photographed. We did superb black and white photos and we really used these faces and these hands too, of men and women who work the earth in lots of communication elements. It really brought a lot of things and a lot of soul to what we do.
It’s one of the cores of wine, it’s the people behind.
Michel: That’s for sure.
Hence this podcast to try to meet these people behind. Super interesting. It’s already been 53 minutes that we’ve been together.
Michel: Already. Time goes fast. Antoine: It goes at incredible speed. We’ve already done a nice tour of everything you do here. I think we have all the weapons to discover this cooperative further and all the different works you can lead, discover your wines, also discover all the projects that go with it.
I have three questions that are always traditional at the end of an episode. The first is: do you have a book on wine to recommend to me?
Michel: I spoke earlier about what really hooked me to this trade, it’s the vine and there’s a book I remember, that we always had when we studied at Beaune in BTS, it was: “Les éléments de physiologie de la vigne” by François Champagnol. It’s a book that has followed me since 87 when I was at Beaune in BTS. A book dedicated to the cultivation of the vine, to understanding the physiology of the vine. Antoine: Super interesting. I said super interesting again. I’ll go read this one. Michel: It’s a bit technical but when you love viticulture you love understanding what happens, both in the aerial part of the vine and in the soil and subsoil.
I really need to progress on this part precisely. It really makes me want to understand what happens behind and go to the bottom of the subject. It’s a missing stone in my knowledge of wine and what can go with it, clearly important. Do you have a recent favorite tasting?
Michel: Yes, I have one, not very long ago, about ten days ago. I had a superb tasting, doubly superb because it was with one of my best friends, who was at school with me at Beaune. He’s at Gevrey Chambertin. We went down to his cellar and we did a superb tasting on barrel where we tasted Gevreys, premiers crus, grands crus, in all simplicity and with a lot of pleasure. So both friendship, the place, the quality of the wines and the history that goes with it. It was a very beautiful tasting, Domaine Rossignol-Trapet, in Gevrey Chambertin. Antoine: We hug him then.
And finally, who should be the next person I interview on this podcast?
Michel: If you want to go back up to North Burgundy, I just cited the Maison Rossignol-Trapet, David Rossignol. He’s someone, a passionate winegrower, in love with Burgundy too and the wines he produces. It could be a beautiful person to meet. That works, count on me. For those listening to us, stay tuned to this podcast since you’ll perhaps have the chance to discover this Maison Rossignol-Trapet. Stay tuned and I’ll be delighted to take you there in the future. Thank you very much for your time today. It was a pleasure to be with you, to come meet you. Michel: Shared pleasure. A nice exchange, hoping to have made better understood what Terres Secrètes are and the Mâconnais vineyards. You should know that the people here are welcoming. Don’t hesitate to come and we’ll be delighted to receive you. Antoine: Exactly, the message is passed. For those listening to us, if this episode pleased you don’t hesitate to come meet Terres Secrètes and discover their wines. Don’t forget to rate this podcast of course, five stars, it helps to make it discovered in rankings, etc. Follow us on Instagram, subscribe to the newsletter. In short, there are lots of things you can do right now, so do them. I thank you for listening. There are more and more of you every week. It really makes me happy and I’ll see you in two weeks. Thanks again, and very soon.
