For this 42nd episode of the Wine Makers Show, your wine podcast, we head out to meet Benoît Trocard at the helm of Clos Dubreuil in Saint-Émilion. Benoît walks us through his story and the story of Clos Dubreuil before tackling its biggest ambitions.
We’ll surely talk about lots of things, but can you start by introducing yourself?
Benoît: Of course. My name is Benoît Trocard. I come from a family of winemakers from the right bank of Bordeaux that goes back roughly to 1620. The oldest parchments we find in the family that justify the possession of viticultural lands are signed at the notary in 1620. We can’t say that at that time we were making wine but we know there were vines in the family. I took over from my parents now 2 years ago. I’ve been working with them since 2001.
When I found myself with the baccalaureate in hand, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. So I went off to a post-bac business school and I had a blast there. And then I really found my path in marketing, in finance, in all those things. Since I didn’t feel like I was working, the student parties pleased me a lot. So I continued with a business school in Reims called ESC Reims, now Neoma Business School. Very good school. I didn’t have as much fun there as in Bordeaux because in Bordeaux there’s that southwestern side. I had a great group of buddies. I admit the Bordeaux-Champagne diagonal is rather very nice. A good meal accompanied by a good Bordeaux wine and preceded by a winemaker champagne is always very nice.
I then went off to do a year abroad after Reims, in Dublin, Ireland. I did a master of business study, so an MBS in e-commerce. I don’t know why, but I told myself I wanted to learn a bit more English. At the end of this master I came back to the property, so in June or July 2001 and I settled there. I told myself, “Hey, I’m going to do the harvests with my parents, that’ll be nice,” like a return to roots. And I never left again.
I had realized when I lived in Dublin, that it was the first time I didn’t find myself at the family domaine during the harvests. I had my room, above the cellar. I smelled those grape fermentation aromas and that smell really missed me.
It was a bit of a click. I told myself I’m going to come back to the property, I’m going to do the harvests. I did the harvests. It was great. And then in 2001, big vintage in Bordeaux. Superb vintage with lots of finesse, a bit less rated initially than 2000, but which today reveals itself as absolutely extraordinary. I told myself, “I’m not leaving anymore.” I worked a bit with my father and my grandfather who was still active.
What were you doing at that point?
Benoît: I take care of marketing. There wasn’t any in the company. During the harvests I was in the cellar, like since I was a kid. We’ve always spent the harvests in the cellar vinifying, sorting grapes on sorting tables. I feel a real passion for that. But I told myself I couldn’t work with family. I went off in early 2002 to Australia to do a vintage. I had a blast and I convinced my father to help me invest in an estate there. My grandfather goes back with me to see what was happening, and then with the Australian dollar crisis, depreciation of costs.
My father told me, “Listen, come check it out, there’s a small estate that’s selling here next to one of our parcels. Come see if it can interest you, and at the same time I’m not asking you, that’s how it is. I won’t put 1 cent in Australia until you’ve come to see.”
I arrived on this hill of Clos Dubreuil, in Saint-Christophe-des-Bardes. And I never left again. I tasted the wine that was being made at the time, here in a 1970s pavilion. Literally the dwelling house above in the slope of the hill. We could almost have done gravity already at the time, and no temperature regulation, well quite outdated. The wine was still sublime, so a real revelation. So that’s the start of the adventure. I launch myself as a vinifier and owner. So not an oenologist, but with family know-how and a father and grandfather who follow me closely. So I’m self-taught, but not so self-taught actually, there’s a family base that’s there.
So it was a bit of daily learning for you?
Benoît: I often compare what I am today to a great chef who’s asked what cooking school he was trained at. Chefs like Alain Ducasse for example are great chefs who learned in the kitchens of their grandmother or mother and who launched themselves as a chef but without necessarily going through cooking school.
How did it go when you arrived here?
Benoît: I tell myself, if we manage to make a wine this good with such modest equipment, the potential of the property and the terroir must be quite exceptional. I think at the time I didn’t realize at all where we were located. For me, we’re in Saint-Christophe-des-Bardes, I don’t really realize we’re on this limestone plateau. I just taste a wine I find sublime. I tell myself, “The guy is good because he does this without a sorting table, without temperature regulation, he has an old rusty plate press. He’s good and I think there’s something happening in this soil that’s absolutely extraordinary.”
The mill starts up. I take care of all the marketing side obviously and then the technical part that I still master from working with family. I had seen the evolution of all these techniques, so to fix the sorting table, the temperature regulation, etc. For the first vintage in 2003, still without temperature regulation, but since I was 23 years old I think, I had insane energy. I managed to cool it by putting it in cubitainers. These are plastic containers in which we put wine bladders. We put water inside and then in my grandparents’ freezers. I’d go get them, rotate them every day to cool the musts, since in 2003 we remember, it was very hot.
The 2003 wine will remain for me perhaps not the best, but the greatest vintage, the first one. I don’t know if you can ask parents which they prefer and if they can say the eldest, I don’t think it works that way. But in any case in this world, well in this sensation of wine, this approach, yeah this 2003 vintage will remain forever engraved.
We went a bit fast on your arrival here. Before that did you always know you wanted to make wine?
Benoît: No not at all, that’s what I was saying, it’s a revelation. I really didn’t want to make wine. When I was in Ireland and I realized I had an absolute lack of those very particular fermentation smells. It’s a bit yeasty, it’s a bit like baker’s bread. So it’s not baker’s bread but we have this fermentary aroma in wine that’s quite particular, that’s absolutely intoxicating. Which is maybe dangerous at the same time because it’s actually carbon dioxide, but there you go, and I really love that.
Antoine: That’s super interesting.
Benoît: I can’t explain it more than that, it’s that lack. Then the fact of arriving after with the parents in front of the company functioning with a look of someone who did 5 years of studies. We tell ourselves I learned so many things in management, in marketing, why not put them at the service of a family business rather than going to bring skills and energy to other big groups. So I would have certainly loved that, but the desire to put my skills at the service of the family business and on top, this lack linked to the absence of cellars during vinification was stronger. During my studies I always came back in September. We always had a bit of time during the harvests, that was the advantage of being a student. All this end to end made me want to make wine.
What was your parents’ reaction at that moment?
Benoît: First, I have 5 brothers and sisters and we were lucky that our parents never forced us to take over the property. It was really a luxury I want to say, because they could have. They probably wanted to but there was never any pressure on that level. I think for my father, who is today retired for 2 years, it’s a form of pride.
He didn’t really communicate it at the time but he told himself, “There, I know there’s someone who’ll take over the domaine.” Because for these old family domaines, as prestigious, small or large as they are, we’re always afraid, we always ask ourselves what generation won’t go all the way. I think when he saw me come back and take the direction 2 years ago, he told himself, “I did my job, I passed the torch.” Now the pressure is on me.
Do you have children?
Benoît: No but I still have 5 brothers and sisters, so maybe they’ll have everything needed.
Antoine: Between 2003, so your first vinification here, and today, quite a few things have happened.
The estate has grown a little bit?
Benoît: The estate when it was created in 1996 was 45 ares, so 0.45 hectares. When I bought it, it was 1 hectare 45 and today it’s 8 hectares. It will have taken me almost 20 years to get to these 8 hectares. Because first, we’re in France but in the countryside. We don’t buy neighbors like we buy a piece of meat at the butcher’s. It takes time. We deal with peasants who devoted their life, their soul to their property and who transmit with time all their feelings into this bottle of wine. They’re hyper attached and they’d sometimes prefer to sell to a local peasant rather than to a big investor. They want to be sure that their vines will be treated with as much passion.
I was good with the village people. My grandfather had been elected here as general councilor, always very respected. He did enormous work of proximity and that was I believe my biggest card. Being from an old family of the area, I was able to have access bit by bit. It really stretched over 20 years to buy back parcel pieces to manage to make Clos Dubreuil today this 8-hectare property.
There we’re in the cellar. The house where I am currently belonged to the son of an old man who himself had sold the house next door to my father. He still lived until not long ago in the house next door.
So we managed to reconstitute the original clos. This property is a clos because it’s surrounded by a stone wall. We really have the house that will be finished and that will be enclosed in this stone wall. We united the 2 original parcels of the property, which weren’t called Clos Dubreuil obviously at the time but which belonged to this same man. It’s quite passionate to have managed to do that.
Isn’t it a bit of a pain having to look for the land, discuss with each person and negotiate?
Benoît: When you’re looking for that, you don’t negotiate. I want to say it’s not even a search. It’s rather a lot of empathy, listening and consideration. I see today too many people arrive in the region thinking that with money you buy everything. And I think it’s having forgotten the real truth of people, so I’m sorry for the pleonasm.
We have here in the countryside and everywhere in France for that matter people who could die for their lands. Some are. It’s of capital importance that when I take over a piece of land I don’t take over as a piece, I take over part of people’s history. I try to integrate it as best I can at Clos Dubreuil, in this philosophy that’s mine since I think every winemaker unconsciously has their own style. So no it’s not a pain at all; it’s on the contrary a true passion. And it’s an honor that these people do me when they accept to let me work their lands.
You spoke of your style. How would you define it?
Benoît: It’s always a hyper difficult question. Already, there’s something I try to sublimate, it’s the soil on which Clos Dubreuil is planted. I was going to say the terroir but I corrected myself because the terroir by definition is a combination of several things. It’s the soil, man and the environment or nature, or climatic hazards.
So really there, we’re on a limestone plateau. We saw photos earlier, we have the bedrock at less than 20 centimeters. It’s a terroir that’s absolutely magical. The limestone rock is loaded with minerals. The first step when I make a wine is to try that when we taste the wine we say, “There we’re on limestone.”
That’s the first step, so it goes through listening to the vine, a style of maturity and gentle extraction. On the other hand, after that, I love wines that are rich, heady, fleshy. Careful when I say that, it doesn’t mean these are powerful or hyper tannic wines. We can have fleshy, velvety, rich wines but that at the same time can have a great finesse in tannins. I don’t like wines that are too acidic. I love a perfect balance between acidity, alcohol and richness.
For Clos Dubreuil wines, but we could find it on all the family wines I vinify the same way, I love wines that are precise, pure, where the expression of fruit is at its maximum. I work enormously on the aging between reduction and oxidation. I try to position myself at the perfect balance of these two models. Reduction pushed to the extreme will be H2S, so rotten egg, and oxidation. We’ll be on Port-like sides, so with fruits that are no longer very fresh. I try to really have a fruit that’s between black and red, more than prunes.
That’s the goal, wines that are rich, balanced and that have a lot of freshness in the finish. I love wines that are appetizing, identity-affirming of their region and their terroir and that at the same time have a beautiful maturity with a lot of richness, a lot of finesse and depth and with a finish even more on freshness. It’s certainly the saline side of the limestone plateau that we’ll find that gives the taste. One glass calls for another, I think that’s the key to our trade. We produce wine every year, otherwise we’d have some trouble distributing our wines.
Antoine: So precisely let’s talk about distribution since it’s an element that’s pretty particular at your place or for someone who is a mark of originality in Bordeaux.
You don’t go through Bordeaux négoce at all, through the place de Bordeaux?
Benoît: No. I tried but my family has always worked directly. We work it a tiny bit, sometimes with family wines on a very particular operation. But forever we have a private client file in France. We’re in direct contact with our importers. I know exactly in which restaurant Clos Dubreuil was distributed in New York, what quantity they bought, of which vintage. I have American clients who buy directly at the property, so we manage to export and that’s a key today. I think behind the word winemaker, there’s not just the guy who makes the wine, there’s the guy who sells too.
I think Bordeaux has a distribution model that’s certainly extraordinary that the world envies us, for very great grands crus classés or brands of very strong notoriety. On the other hand for the winemaker that I am, and many other winemakers in the region, it’s not a distribution system that’s close to the client. That brings us today in any case globally the wrath of certain buyers and certain consumers.
But I fight every day to make people understand that there are still winemakers in Bordeaux who make the wine, who sell it and who are close to the consumer. When there’s a visit here, as much as possible, I’m the one who does it. If I developed visits, I couldn’t do them all. It’s really a choice of direct distribution, with consumers. I’m the one who’ll do the wine dinners abroad or even in France.
I want to imperatively keep this contact with the professional clientele but also that of private buyers. Because if we lose all that, we can completely deceive ourselves in a world where we believe everything is easy. No it’s not easy. Making a wine is a lot of energy, a lot of passion, a lot of precision. But selling it is yet another step.
I think we can’t take consciousness of the wine we make if we don’t have facing us the direct return of a consumer. It’s hyper important to hear oneself say things that can sometimes be vexing but that are true in reality. That is, there are clients, there are people who pay a bottle at a certain price. They have the right to have an opinion and we can not listen to them or we can listen and not pay attention. But I find it’s really key to listen. I think the real winemaker in my eyes is a person who knows how to work the land, knows how to make wine, but also knows how to sell it.
Doesn’t it take you an inordinate amount of time to do that?
Benoît: Yes, but it’s the trade I chose. I think it’s not even a trade, it’s a life even. It’s beyond passion. That is, sometimes we let our arms drop, well we’re like everyone. Then I’m not 20 anymore especially. I think it’s a delivery every year in wine so consequently we carry it to the end. For me to keep it in stock here in the cellar, that has no interest.
I’ll be hyper honest, the advantage of Covid is that it allowed me to stay almost a year here in France without moving. Sincerely it’s crazy, I didn’t miss it.
You have to do it because we have no choice, but I’m so much better here, on the estate, taking care of the wines, and having all my weekends. That had never happened to me in 20 years. Afterwards all that will start back up but I think this current situation will have at least had the merit of teaching us to look at things a bit differently. We were all the time right and left trying to sell wine. It’s one of the projects I’m putting together today, it’s rather to bring a maximum of people to the property, which would maybe save me from going even further to do promotion.
Can you tell us a bit more about the project you’re going to lead?
Benoît: Of course. Now that I’ve roughly reached the surface I wanted to have on Clos Dubreuil, I wanted to go further in the project. I think in terms of wine, we can always do better. But I think I’ve reached a level that satisfies me while seeking every year to go a bit further. I wanted to bring more people to the property. For me, wine is a great moment shared with several people. If we want to create something more around wine to make it not a luxury product, but rather indispensable, we have to add a cultural and sporting dimension to it.
I want Clos Dubreuil to become a destination for wine amateurs, for athletes, for epicureans. That it be a place that brings people together. That’s why I’m in the process of creating a kind of village square. When people come visit Saint-Émilion, Bordeaux, or France, they have a place where they want to walk telling themselves, “I’ll be able to come by, I’ll see the horse working in the vines. I’ll see the owner come out of his cellar during the harvests.” Because we work the entire estate with a horse, the vines are around the clos.
Often in properties they hide all these parts a bit. In villages back then, the cobbler worked on the village square and the baker did the same. I want people who come here during the harvests, the primeurs or whatever to have a place where they can feel at ease and see people working outside.
It’s a place that will have a reception room, a small shop, certainly something ephemeral for summer to make people want to come even more. There will also be some accommodations, and I want all that to be able to coexist. There will be no restriction on coming to Clos Dubreuil.
I don’t want it to be a question of elitism. It’s really a place where people should mix and cross. All this in addition with a sporting axis, because I find that too often we disconnect wine from sport. As someone who loves sport, I want to show and say loud and clear that sport and wine are far from incompatible. You can love sport, do sport and even be a high-level athlete and yet be an epicurean.
As in wine, it’s a search for balance. You can love eating and drinking good wines and love doing sport. As in wine, you can have both tannins and alcohol and acidity and have a perfect balance.
All this complex will be present here at Clos Dubreuil. It’s several suites you showed me, around a square with another building, where the reception room will be. It’s rather big.
Benoît: Yes it’ll be fine, it’ll be a big village. No not a big village, it’s tiny, it’s a small hamlet actually. For now it’s like that. Maybe it’ll develop, I have lots of ideas in mind, we’ll see, lots of desires especially. I want to go a bit further. My maternal grandfather was a baker. I’ve always had a bread oven on the property so I’m rebuilding one because we had to change its location. I’d maybe like a bread oven. So would it be collective to the village, that people could come bake their bread or why not install a baker?
These are ideas, nothing’s done yet. But we have a vegetable garden, beehives, we already make honey. Almost a small hamlet that would live in autarky around a fairly precise local activity. But first for all those who are a bit in love with wine, there’s bread, wine, cheese, so that’s already that, that can be enough.
Antoine: Normally that’s already not bad indeed.
When will it be ready?
Benoît: We’re in full work. If all goes well, the part oriented shop, reception, garden, will be I hope for this summer. There we’re finishing some work. The whole accommodation part will be for summer 2022. The hamlet will therefore be entirely finished for summer 2022.
Antoine: Great. Don’t hesitate to drop by Clos Dubreuil to see where it is and check out the works and see what it’ll look like. And in the future to see how much this hamlet will have developed and transformed into a megalopolis near Saint-Émilion.
You grew up in wine. How do you perceive the evolution of the wine world and Bordeaux in general?
Benoît: Yes I grew up here, I left Bordeaux for three or four years only. So there are several things, there are several answers to that in the wine world in general between when I was a kid and today. First the world wine production has exploded.
When I was a kid, Bordeaux had leadership, today we’re far from having it. And leadership that was qualitative on the great wines but that was especially distributive and of production.
Today we have proof that with work we make good wines everywhere. There were investors, passionate people who developed great estates whether in China today or in Thailand. We even make wine in Japan, in Belgium, in England… Bordeaux found itself faced with that and lost a bit of its energy compared to all this international competition. That proved that we couldn’t be average in Bordeaux anymore, you had to be great. That’s an observation.
Then what saddens me on the other hand today, is that there are winemakers in Bordeaux but we’re losing them. I think because of one or several distribution modes, we’re losing the winegrowing diversity of Bordeaux. It’s something that disappoints me to the highest degree, that really saddens me. We see big groups invest. It’s good for the region, lots of money is arriving, there are jobs, but we lose diversity.
Let’s take Saint-Émilion as an example. We had at the time a mosaic of small winemakers who made different wines, more or less good, large, or expensive, and today that’s disappearing in favor of big groups. Unfortunately they push prices up and consequently we see families selling. It saddens me deeply. I think we’re making wine with money and not money with wine. It’s something that destroys me personally. So it’s time to change that and it’ll be complicated.
How should we change that?
Benoît: No, but there’s no way, it’s globalization, it’s economics. I just make the bitter observation. Me, I’m still from an old family of the area. I want to say to these investors if you come to invest in Bordeaux, “Bet on young people from these families, help them. They’ll give you everything because they’re kids who are generally more than passionate.”
Rather than buying back great estates and putting directors in place, isn’t it better to maintain diversity and invest in young people from the region? On human rather than land, that would be a beautiful way to put things in place.
Antoine: Message received. If people from big groups are listening, you now know on whom to invest and how to create your next strategy for the next 10 years. You were talking earlier about the distribution of your wine. You know exactly where it’s sold and who consumes it.
Can you give us a bit of the profile of these people who consume your wine and has this profile evolved in the last 10 years?
Benoît: I distribute directly. If we talk about the final consumer, there are two aspects. First the price of wine, which is fairly high and so isn’t necessarily for every wallet. That’s why there’s a second wine. Ours is called Anna. It was the first name of my great-grandmother. It’s a tribute to those women who made wine on family properties during the First World War, when all the men were at the front.
At Clos Dubreuil, the clientele has gotten a bit younger. I think it’s a little linked to communication with everything happening on social networks. There are more and more young people interested in wine.
I dream that someone really passionate about wine but who doesn’t have the means comes knocking on the property’s door and tells me, “Sir I don’t have the means to buy your wine but I’ve heard so much about it I’d dream of tasting it.” For that, the door will always be open. That’s why we’re putting in place this wine bar so that people who can’t buy a bottle can also have access to a tasting. I’d be at cost on the wines.
I absolutely want it to become a wine that brings people together.
The clientele has gotten younger, we went from a clientele that was perhaps 50 years and over to a clientele that’s between 34 and 45 years old today. A clientele of women. I’ve seen more and more women interested in Clos Dubreuil. That was made possible thanks to the white wine I started producing in 2013, the chardonnay. That really gave me an opening to a feminine and younger audience and which then sparked curiosity.
On the other hand, the second wine is a wine for people more focused on the quality-price ratio, who are less in search of the exception. They’re searching for a very good wine in quality-price ratio. We have a slightly younger consumer slice, I’d say between 25 and 40 years old. People who are adept at more regular consumption. Clos Dubreuil still remains despite everything a wine consumed a bit less often.
In terms of nationality, have you seen an evolution?
Benoît: In terms of nationality, it’s not complicated. The markets where I sell most today are Luxembourg, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, France and Europe. Then to export it’ll be Thailand, China, Taiwan, South Korea and the United States.
Antoine: So it’s very turned toward Asia and a bit less toward the United States compared to other estates where it’s generally the opposite.
Benoît: I could have turned more easily toward the United States especially when Robert Parker rated the property very well. But with my father, we’ve been investing in the Asian market for 25 years with a person who takes care of our distribution there, who’s attached to the family business, and that’s the explanation. I just started to attack the American market more seriously so consequently we should see sales evolve on that market. Sincerely it’s a production, the great wine is 15,000 bottles per year so I don’t have the capacity either to attack all markets and sell everywhere.
You don’t necessarily have an interest in dispersing your energy spending time on 10,000 things, doing dinners all over the world when you only have 15,000 bottles.
Benoît: My dream is that everything sells at the property, hand to hand, that would be extraordinary.
Do you still have a connection with your parents today?
Benoît: Completely.
Antoine: Do they come by the property a bit, see what you do?
Benoît: So my father a bit less, but I have him on the phone every day. He still takes care of the Asian markets for the family. My mother comes by every day, I have lunch with her every day at the property and with my little brother. It’s nice. For them it was a life, and overnight going from 7 days a week to nothing at all I think isn’t possible. There are private buyers who call every day asking to speak to my parents, so she’s there 2 to 3 hours a day.
Your mother talks with clients on the phone?
Benoît: Yes of course, wine is a connection. It’s a product that’s so engaging. When you open a bottle of wine to friends you deliver part of yourself, that is, people who trust in a wine, in a bottle, in a brand or in a family have the impression of putting part of themselves on the table. If the wine isn’t good and their friend doesn’t like it they’re completely saddened, scared. So maintaining this connection with these people is reassuring them and, I’m not saying we’re friends with our clients, but we have pretty strong bonds.
Do you have clients you’ve known for a very long time?
Benoît: I think that’s what’s great. I have clients who buy every year for 40 years the same order on the same wines every year. They have cellars, I’m thinking notably of a client in Champagne called the Primo family, and I think they have all the vintages of all the Châteaux since the early 60s.
These people are disappearing a bit. We’ve come to a much more eclectic consumption, me first. And we’re no longer too loyal to a domaine. We buy some from time to time but we go to the local wine merchant for the evening dinner. Sometimes we have a few wines that age in the cellar. Me, I love these old French families, old not by age but by tradition. They had a winemaker in Bordeaux, a winemaker in Champagne, a winemaker in Burgundy and every year bought fairly old wines.
Antoine: We talked a bit earlier when we were in the vines about the relationship to the environment and to climate change in general.
Can you tell us a bit more about the impact climate change can have here?
Benoît: At the property from the start, we pay attention to what we do environmentally. I stopped chemical weed-killing in 2005. So we worked for a very long time under the row with a tractor mechanically removing the grass.
Since 2012 we had part of the estate worked by horse. And since 2015 we work 100% with horses under the row. We still have tractors for everything that’s trimming. I’m certified with an environmental label since 2015 called Terra Vitis, which since 2018 has an HVE 3 equivalence, so High Environmental Value level 3.
If we talk a bit about environment, I think it’s a major topic today that doesn’t only concern viticulture but everyone in their daily life at home or in industry. I think it’s part of the topics that are today incompressible.
I stopped at Terra Vitis but not only. Working with horses doesn’t enter the specifications. We also have our own beehives, we make our own honey. If we used too many pesticides everyone knows full well that bees are so sensitive, that they would be dead today or wouldn’t produce honey.
I collect rainwater. It’s treated to water the garden or spray treatment products when needed. It’s outside all these certifications. What needs to be remembered from the property’s effort is a global look at the environment. It’s not simply an organic look that will only look at residues in the bottle. I do many things but I still have so many things to do before being organic.
It’s a bit fashionable to say “I’m organic.” We forget to look at the environment and the global impact.
In organic viticulture, we have copper doses to respect. As they’re contact products, as soon as it rains, they’re washed away. You have to retreat. For example, last year’s vintage. The tractor passes to treat the vines in organic were absolutely phenomenal. We had a soil compaction that goes against what we seek to do, that kills micro bacterial and animal life on the surface.
There’s the use of fuels that pollute the environment. So sure that’s not found in the wines. Copper that’s not found in the wines but pollutes the water tables. That costs money and carbon energy to treat these waters. I think regardless of the label one chooses, regardless of being organic, not organic. What needs to be looked at is its global impact on the environment. I made this choice of Terra Vitis which goes very far in the property’s approach on environmental impact, on the well-being of animals and employees in the vines. Everything is controlled at the level of CCP purchases etc.
So from waste management to bottling, to residue in the bottle since we do analyses every year on the wine, we’re certified for one year only, so every year each vintage is reassessed. I pay hyper attention every year as much as possible to add rainwater treatment, and to do a maximum of small details that come to add to a global look at the environment.
It’s interesting to have precisely this global approach and not just say, I’m staying within the bounds of a certification or I’m doing one thing.
Benoît: That’s really it, I think everyone can be organic at home. You just need a bit of intelligence. I prefer someone who’s locavore than someone who eats organic from Argentina. We can lock ourselves behind labels when it’s simply common sense. It’s good reflection.
Antoine: Yes, it’s clear, it’s better to eat a beautiful steak from a cow that lives next door.
Benoît: And that was slaughtered under respectable conditions. I’ll be a great defender of animals to the end and I hate everything we can see about animal welfare conditions.
Antoine: Are you vegetarian?
Benoît: No, I’m not vegetarian but I know who I buy my meat from and I prefer not to eat any than not knowing who handled it. I can’t work with a horse in the vines, have the dog I have and be in love with animals and accept this animal abuse. I find it absolutely scandalous.
You’ve already answered me a bit, but why the horse?
Benoît: So several reasons. I was a rider for a very long time. Me, I loved horseback riding, but I had to make the choice between an equestrian career or doing studies at one point. My parents strongly advised me to do studies and I think I don’t regret it today. But I have an obvious love for the animal.
The second reason which is certainly the most important because it’s the most technical, is that the horse really works with man. It’s really a duo, it’s a team. Man isn’t as passive as on a tractor. First we’re behind the animal, so we control everything that happens. When we’re on a tractor everything is behind. In 80% of cases we’ll find examples where it can be in front so especially on young vines or on soil work we can adjust the depth manually. We damage young vine plants much less. I find it hyper interesting and quite precise as work.
I find that in this slightly environmental spirit of producing a great wine, of having two energies together which are man and animal to produce great grapes that will certainly make a very great wine, I find it pretty magical in the image. Next time, the works will be finished and we’ll have a glass of wine on the terrace. We’ll have a horse in the vines rather than a tractor, we’ll have a better moment.
Antoine: That’s clear, I really believe it, I’ll be there to attest no problem. So we’re at the start of March 2021 so that means you should normally have a good first vision on the 2020 vintage.
Can you tell us a bit more about the 2020 vintage?
Benoît: Well already, will they really happen this year as we’re used to, maybe not, but we’re going to present anyway.
Antoine: Do you sell en primeur?
Benoît: I sell en primeur, yes of course.
Antoine: Directly with you then, you have to call you?
Benoît: Yes, to consumers directly. I also sell to resellers all over Europe who buy en primeur and who resell to their private clients. So for the 2020 vintage, I think we have a trilogy in Bordeaux. 18-19-20 is absolutely remarkable. I want to say we could even have a head bump since we have 15-16 which are extraordinary. I don’t dare put 2017 there, it just frosted and we produced very pretty wines, perhaps a bit inferior in terms of maturity and concentration. But 18-19-20 are sublime vintages.
In 2020 we had a great drought. Yields dropped a bit, we have a slightly more important concentration certainly than in 2019. But I think we have a vintage, in any case at Clos Dubreuil, that could be one of the most beautiful vintages of the property. There’s little volume, but it’s a very beautiful vintage.
Antoine: Well that’s noted. So the date is set. For all amateurs, if you’ve listened to this podcast before the primeurs you know there’s a very great vintage waiting for you. We’ve answered quite a few of my questions, I think we’ve done a rather pleasant tour.
You seem to have a daily life that’s very busy between here and the various works at the property. Are you holding up?
Benoît: Do I look tired? No, it’s a beautiful energy and I don’t ask myself questions. I get up every morning between 4:30 and 5:00. Then I do an hour of sport, I have breakfast, I go to work and I go to bed early in the evening. I drink wine every day. For those interested, it’s a beautiful lifestyle and it works.
After it’s not in quantities! But I love going to the cellar when I stay at my parents’ at the family domaine. Here for now there’s no more accommodation. I love opening old vintages vinified by my grandfather. I love seeing the evolution a bit, how it works, tasting other winemakers’ wines because that remains very important and not necessarily from Bordeaux. I think a bottle should last 3-4 days so I’m rather reasonable. I’m not talking about excess, that happens too.
Antoine: In all cases it remains to be consumed in moderation obviously, it must be specified, it’s important. Thanks so much Benoît.
I have 3 questions left that are pretty traditional. The first is, do you have a recent tasting that stood out?
Benoît: Do I have a recent tasting that stood out? I drank a Château Larmande, so it’s a Saint-Émilion wine that really blew me away. We were on an 89 vintage, it’s true that it’s not a Château we talk about often. I tasted it in more recent vintages. I found it perhaps less interesting, but in any case this 89 stopped me.
Antoine: Got it, message received, so if you have any in your wine cellar, don’t hesitate to potentially open it and taste it.
Do you have a wine book to recommend to me?
Benoît: Yes I have one called “Trocard, vignerons et bordelais.” We had the chance to work on writing a book on the family’s history. It’s a great book. It explains how peasant winemakers in Bordeaux cross the 16th century, early 17th and the eras. There was phylloxera, the two wars, generation problems and bad vintages. We learn how they manage to fight and have a domaine that stays winegrowing but that makes much more wine than they used to make at the time.
Antoine: Wonderful. Well listen, that’s noted. Is it sold at the property?
Benoît: At the property and also in distribution. It’s a book that tells well the history of Bordeaux at the same time. Through the eyes of a modest family of peasant winemakers. They’re from my family but I really recommend it because it reads very easily. We learn many things. Bordeaux is an absolute richness of small vineyards and small winemakers who work like gods.
Antoine: Got it, well if you’d like to get it, contact Benoît or send an email on the Clos Dubreuil website.
And finally, who should be the next person to be interviewed in this podcast?
Benoît: There are so many. I’d like today to tip my hat to a young winemaker who deserves to be known. He’s one of my former interns, so I’m very proud of him today. He makes wines that are absolutely brilliant and is a winemaker in Champagne called Cédric Moussé.
Cédric took over the family property of his parents who were buddies of my grandparents. At that time we didn’t particularly hang out. He makes an extraordinary champagne that deserves to be known. I think he’s someone who would be very good in my place today.
Antoine: Got it, well listen, I won’t fail to contact him and go see him this summer in Champagne. Thank you very much for this time. It was a pleasure to come meet you, see and share here. And also to taste Clos Dubreuil that we had the chance to open in 2010. It was pure delight. We feasted. Thank you for your welcome and see you very soon I hope.
Benoît: See you soon, yes.
I won’t fail to come back for the opening when this hamlet is ready and thanks for your time. To people listening to us, don’t forget to share this podcast with your loved ones or people who love wine.
If you’re still here, you surely loved this podcast, so give it a 5-star rating. It’s important to make it climb in the rankings and I’ll see you very soon. Benoît, thanks again.
Benoît: Thank you, have a good day.
